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Hello, Merideth Hite Estevez, the creator of Artist for a Joy podcast here. This week's show features an interview, which is something we do a few times per season with someone who personifies a joyful creative life. And today's installment of Meet and Artist who is with Ariel Curry. She is a book coach, editor and writer.
She helps writers write the book the World needs to Read, and she is also just a delightful, knowledgeable, calming creative. And before you pause this and think, this is only an episode for writers, Ariel is also a pianist. And so of course we bonded over our favorite music, and I really especially loved what she told me about returning to the piano after many years away.
Ariel shares what she loves most about helping creatives find clarity in the creation of their books, and she'll share some practical things you can do to celebrate at every stage in your creative journey. When I was writing the How to Celebrate episode, I was really struggling with an opening story. I was down to the wire and had officially run out of time when I decided to take a break and turn on a Zoom meeting that I had missed.
As I watched the recording, I listened to Ariel lead, a group of writers that I'm part of through an exercise around self-efficacy. She had us remember something that we had done that was challenging, and that's when Ariel shared her story of becoming a mountain climber. Suddenly I knew that that was the story I should use for the podcast.
And so for anyone out there struggling, wondering where to go next in a specific creative project, Sometimes all you need to do is to live your life, to turn on the next Zoom meeting to keep going, especially if you're in a community with other creatives. The answer may truly be right around the corner.
And so after that happened, I knew I had to have Ariel on the show
so. I'm excited to talk to you today. Um, you and I have become colleagues and maybe on our way to being friends, and I would love for you to just start off this interview by introducing yourself and telling our listeners who you are and what makes you an artist. Oh, sure. Thanks. Um, I definitely think we are on the way to being friends for sure.
Um, so I am a book coach and an editor. I was in the traditional publishing space for about a decade in various positions. Um, most recently, uh, as an acquisitions editor. And I was an acquisitions editor for about seven of those years. Um, and so my responsibilities were, you know, finding new authors, kind of reading through proposals and um, negotiating contracts with authors, uh, things like that.
And it is a lot of fun to do that. But most of my job was telling people, no. and I just, in my heart of hearts, truly believe that more people can and should write books that than do. And so I wanted one to, you know, be able to work with a wider variety of authors and two, be able to act on that and say yes to people more than no to people.
Hmm. So that's what I do now in my job is I. Writers, um, develop a great book idea usually, Um, well actually not usually all the time nonfiction, . And, um, I have so much fun doing that. I love, um, I love crafting book ideas with authors and, you know, being able to land on something that we just know is a great idea and then helping.
Expand on that idea into a book structure. I'm a huge believer in structure and having a strong outline and a plan for your book. Um, and so I have so much fun working with authors on developing out, you know, what is this book going to be? And so a big part of that, especially considering my. Experience in traditional publishing is helping authors with book proposals.
I ghost write book proposals all the time. Um, and then I also kind of coach people through the book proposal process. So that's a big part of what I do just on a day to day basis. Hmm. I love that. I, I called you a book midwife in the in my, Yes. I don't know if you would use that term, but what I like about, I like about that image, You really facilitate the, the, the bringing forth of some big creative project.
And I, you know, I wonder, does that resonate with you, that title, but also what does that feel like to, to shepherd creative people through, you know, giving birth to their book, Baby? Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely . Um, I, I do resonate with that title. Um, it's not a title I usually use for myself, but I definitely think it's appropriate for sure.
Um, . It is a lot of fun, like I said, but then there's also this like really interesting balance between creativity and marketability, and I find that, you know, in the publishing world, when I lived in that space, everything was all about marketability. And marketability really drove a lot of decision making, which is good and necessary.
You have to have marketability as you're considering. Um, you. Uh, the, the efficacy of a book idea and whether or not it's going to work, and obviously whether it's gonna sell is an important part of, um, pitching a book to a publisher. So I can bring that side of my brain that more like analytical data driven.
Um, Piece of my brain to this. But I also really believe in the power of creativity and like Liz Gilbert, you know, calls it big magic. And there's just something that's a little bit more like spiritual about this book process too, that I have more space now in my career to explore with authors. And I'll give you an example.
Yesterday, um, I was meeting with an author. And she said, I know we talked about doing this book idea because it's what my agent wants me to write. It's what you know. I know for a fact would sell really well, but it's just not the story I feel ready to tell yet. And I think there's still some more growing I need to do.
I need to figure that out more. But this other idea is what is pouring out of me right now. And these are the words that I really wanna say. And. Leaning into that, I said, All right, let's explore that idea. It was really, you know, creativity driven for her, but we were able to find some ways to make it marketable and kind of help make it, you know, satisfy what like her agent wanted and, um, you know, what she knew would sell to her audience.
So I love being able to kind of bring both of those. Um, forces to play in the book process. Um, rather than being like all creativity led, which could lead you into doing some really crazy things, or all marketability led, which could leave you with something that is not really appealing or, um, exciting to audiences at all.
Mm-hmm. , so, yeah. I don't know if that's, uh, helpful, but No, that's great. Yeah, we have, as I told you, a lot of our listeners aren't authors. They're not writers, and we have visual artists and dancers and actors and musicians, and I think that, you know, what I love talking to you about coaching or book coaching specifically is because I think in the writing sphere, there's a lot more access to these kinds of tools.
As a book coach, as a, you know, A creative midwife, you know, we need that kind of support for artists across the board. And that's one reason why I got trained as a coach, because I feel like as a classical musician myself, there wasn't anyone there. I had teachers who were teaching me technique and who were even guiding me in my career, but not all of them were able to meet me where I.
and see what creative offerings I was feeling called to produce and then help me shepherd into making that a career or making that a part of my, my, my artistic practice. And so, I guess, I'm trying to think of a question that can go with this, but like, how might we, cuz you know, I know you, you. Practice music and you, you work with all kinds, You work with writers mainly, but people who are creative across the board.
How might we encourage creative people to access this type of help and to feel, to feel empowered maybe is the right word, to, to know that they don't have to have all of the answers themselves. It's okay to have a partner, a creative partner to help bring you through. Oftentimes rocky or unsettling or unclear process of creating something that you care about?
Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Um, I am a huge believer in surrounding yourself with people who can, um, challenge you in all of the right ways. So, um, You know, I shared with you before we started recording that I, um, recently kind of started taking piano lessons again after a 14 year break, . And I did that because I wanted to get back into, um, you know, good habits playing piano and also just challenge myself.
Um, again, and I knew that the best way to do that was having another person involved in the process. I knew that that's not something that. Can do most effectively for myself. But anyways, yeah, I knew that having another person in that space with me, Would be way more effective than trying to figure out how to, um, make myself better without getting that real time feedback.
I think that's one thing, um, that's really helpful, is that when you're even just talking out loud to someone else, they're able to give you real time feedback and help you develop your thinking. I often use the term like with my authors, that I'm a thought partner with you. Um, we. Kind of co-creating this book.
Not that I'm taking credit for it, it is your idea. But my hope and my goal is always to help you take that like seed of an idea or that like really rough gem of an idea and hone it and make it more refined and bring out all of its brilliance that you might not be able to achieve on your own. And I think.
We all as artists know how critical and important that process is having someone else involved with us, um, in making us better. Absolutely. Yeah, that's really well said. But having a trusted partner there to, to walk with you and to, to provide the right questions, right? They're not giving you answers.
They're just helping you realize that the answers are already within you, and it's a matter of living them out or fleshing them out, and having a partner to do that is so powerful. So in the main episode, which by the way if you haven't heard that, it's called How to Celebrate. It was episode three. In season three.
We talked about what is important about cultivating a mindset of celebration. And I told, I shared the story of yours, Ariel, about your, your epic rock claiming adventure. And so I would, I would love to. , you know, a little bit more about your journey as a, as an accidental rock climber and , what that was like for you as you grew and how that spoke into your creative practice.
Yeah, definitely. So, I was definitely an accidental rock climber. That's a, that's a great way to phrase it. Um, honestly, I started rock climbing to impress the guy that I liked, , because he was really into rock climbing and he was like, Hey, we should climb together. And I was like, Ah, yes. All about the adventure over here, , even though I am, you know, more of a homebody and I do music and I've never really been like a very active person.
Um, although I've become much more active, um, through him, and, uh, I love him very much and I'm grateful for the ways that he's challenged me. Um, but you know, you shared beautifully that when I started rock climbing, you know, I would get six feet off the ground and just start crying. I mean, I was terrified of heights.
And something that really helped me through that is my husband has a rule for all climbing. It's when you get to the top, you have to stop and turn around and look out at the view. Often as I was climbing, I was literally crying as I went. And so when I got to the top I was always just like, Get me down.
I'm done. I just wanna go down now I'm done with this. And he would, you know, he's on belay, so he has control over whether I go down or not . And so he would say, No, you need to stop and look out at the view. And so I would stop. You know, take a few deep breaths, compose myself, turn around and look out at the view.
I have seen some absolutely incredible views that I could never see any other way because of this journey. That moment also makes you kind of stop and realize what you just did. So even though it was really hard, even though it was really scary, even though sometimes, you know, it's painful, like my fingers feel, um, raw from gripping sometimes like sharp rocks and stuff, that moment of sitting at the top and looking out at the view, I would always think to myself, Oh my gosh, I just did that.
I just did that and that feeling. That in itself is kind of addictive. You know, that feeling is so powerful and that feeling is what persuaded me to get on the next climb. Even though I knew it was gonna be a struggle, even if I knew there were just gonna be times that I did not enjoy it. I always knew that at the top I would have that moment of just feeling super proud of myself.
And climbing is never something I thought that I could do. When I tell people now that I'm a climber, often they're like, Oh my gosh, I could never do that. And I'm like, I thought the same thing. I truly thought the same thing, that I could never be a climber and I could never do these really hard things, and I could never be that far above the ground and be.
But I've just proven it to myself time and time again by actually doing it. And I know that, you know, I say the same thing with writers and with artists all the time. You know, I never thought I could play some, you know, really, uh, complicated chopan pieces. And then I did it and it just took a lot of work and it wasn't fun.
Um, I never thought that I could write a book, but then I did it. And once you've done some of those hard things, You realize you can do other hard things too. Um, and that has been one of the most worthwhile lessons I've learned from climbing in general. How do you encourage the writers that you work with to turn around and check out the view?
Like what do they do, like practical action that they do, because I know mm-hmm. going through the book, book publishing process myself, the, the fear is this, Well, it's. Done or, well, it's still not on the shelf. Or, Well, I only got feedback from these, these agents and this publisher or this editor and these people didn't even respond to my email yet.
And there's all that like qualification of like, Well, this isn't that big of a deal, or I shouldn't, I don't deserve to celebrate this. Or this is, you know, How do you encourage people to go ahead and turn around and check out that view when they get to the top of even a small. . Yeah. Well, okay, let me back up a little bit.
Um, and come back around to that. So, self-efficacy is a concept that I talk about often, um, with my authors. And, um, I believe that it's critical for all of us. We have self-efficacy in lots of different ways in our life, and we need self-efficacy. So self-efficacy. Essentially your belief in your own ability to meet a goal.
So it's kind of when you say, I know that when I do these actions, I will achieve this result. So if it's, you know, practicing every day, I know if I practice, um, my instrument every single day, I will be able to increase my dexterity, you know, and speed and control or whatever those skills are that you are trying to practice.
And it's the same thing with writing too. Having self-efficacy gives you the confidence and the motivation to keep doing your work. And so there's four ways to build self self-efficacy. One of those ways, and the most effective way is to experience small wins toward your goal. So for example, um, if I spend.
20 minutes practicing this finger exercise and by the end of those 20 minutes I can do that finger exercise with without messing up, you know, without making a mistake. I just experienced a small win and that alone, that moment shows me that I can do, you know, I can take on the next exercise and I can take on the next little goal towards my overall goal of being able to play this chopin piece, for example.
And it's important that you stop and recognize the fact that you just did it right and celebrate that because that tells your brain that you did have a win. So you can't build self-efficacy if you don't recognize that something is a win in the first place, right? So if you accomplish something, but then you're like, Uh, well I'm still not able to play this piece.
I still haven't reached my overall goal. Not going to be, you know, encouraging. It's not going to make you feel excited or, um, confident in taking the next steps towards reaching that goal. So you have to stop, first of all, and recognize that you did win, and making yourself celebrate even if you aren't necessarily feeling it in the moment.
Is a way to do that. So just like when my husband would like, make me stop and look around at the top of the climb, even though at the moment I wasn't feeling like doing that, it actually did force me to say, Hey, wait a minute. I just did this. I did win . I can do this. Um, so I often in order to kind of force my authors to like stop and realize that they.
Win experience a win. I ask them to think of, there's a few ways I do this. I ask them to think of a really hard thing that they've done, and I did this in that, um, in that meeting that you were talking about. So I ask them to think of something they're really proud of having accomplished in their lives.
And I hear stories like, I asked for a raise or a promotion. I went after my dream job. I left an abusive, you know, partner. I raised kids with special needs. I hear some really incredible hard things that people have done, and I use that to make the point of like, okay. You've done something really hard, and that's way harder than writing a book like
That's way harder than a lot of the things that we're trying to accomplish in our, in our lives. And so if you can do that, you can totally do this. So taking those moments and you, you know, you can like journal about them, you can just have a conversation about them as a coach, I really love having those kinds of conversations with, um, my clients.
It's usually an aha moment for them to go, Oh, yeah. Like that is a big deal, isn't it? Um, other way, you know, other practical ways that I do that I ask people to, um, to do something fun, to relax and celebrate every time they hit like a, a concrete milestone. Like when an author sends a manuscript to me, um, for developmental editing.
I always say in my email back to them like, Hey, I'm confirming receipt of this, and also you just finished the first draft of your manuscript, . Oh my goodness. That's huge. Go do something fun that go, you know? Out to your favorite restaurant, go celebrate with your spouse. Go like, take a weekend away. Don't worry about your book.
From here on out, I'm gonna take over, um, in this process. But you should stop and celebrate the fact that you just hit this really, really big milestone. Most authors don't even get here, so you should, you know, bask in that moment. Um, Another thing that I do is I ask authors when they are setting out on their journey to write a book, I ask them to set rewards for certain milestones.
So set a reward for when you hit like the 50% mark. Set a reward for when you hit the a hundred percent mark set. You know, whatever meaningful rewards you need to, um, And do it ahead of time so that when you reach that milestone, you've already told yourself, this is gonna be a big moment that I can celebrate and win.
And you've already kind of given yourself that permission, um, to, to bask in that moment and to enjoy what you've done. That is great cuz I was, I was about to ask a follow up question about, you know, I'm, I'm imagining what the listeners are saying, and you know what, if they feel like, Oh, well I didn't reach my goal and I didn't finish my manuscript and I didn't.
Make the progress that I wanted to make, and what I heard there was you get to decide how big or small. The milestones are apart from one another. And so I think, yeah, I think if you, if you're saying to yourself, Well, I didn't do that thing, then make the thing smaller so that you can feel that positive jolt of success and celebration to give you that self-efficacy.
To move forward. Make progress. Exactly. Exactly. That's huge. To enjoying the journey along the way. . Um, because honestly, if you don't enjoy it along the way, it's gonna be really difficult. the whole way through. You have to find, um, find ways to make it fun for yourself. I'm a huge believer in finding ways to make it fun.
If it's not fun, why are you doing it? . . Yeah. So what are some ways that our listeners might make it fun regardless of their discipl? You know, I've already kind of said this, but I'm a big believer in surrounding yourself with people who will cheer you on. Um, my husband is a great cheerleader for me. He was a great cheerleader for me, you know, in all my climbing stuff.
But he's also a great cheerleader for me in my writing, um, and my career. I also have a writing partner, so I'm working on a book myself and I have a co-author in that. And, um, I think that's a really underestimated, uh, strategy. But having someone that you write with or perform with, like, I love doing duets on the piano as well because it's fun having someone else there.
To challenge you in all the right ways, like we said before, but also just to celebrate, you know, those moments of synchronicity that kind of happen when you're an artist and you're doing something creative with someone else. Those moments when you're like, Ooh, we are on the same wavelength and we're, we're thinking the same thing.
We just did this and it went really, really well. High Five . Mm-hmm. , those kinds of moments are. More fun and more impressive, I guess when you're doing it, um, with someone else, you know, you can have a, a really cool moment on your own too, and then the only person there to see it is you. And, and that still can be cool.
Um, but I'm a big believer in sharing your successes with other people and having people around you, um, you know, to, to experience that and to encourage you as. Right. I agree. Yeah. And I, I love the, the metaphor of rock climbing for the creative life because, you know, there really a lot of it is your own effort.
Like you, you are really legit pulling yourself up a mountain, and yet you're not alone because there's someone else there on the end of the rope. And I really think that that is true in our work as creatives, regardless of our project or a discipline or our level. Because there's, there's a community to be, to be had, even if you're on your own writing a book.
You know, for hours and hours every day, you have people out there who care and who wanna cheer you on and yeah, I think, I think a lot of us have like imposter syndrome thoughts of like, how dare I call myself a writer or I don't wanna let anybody in on what I'm doing because I'm afraid I might fail.
And I think if we're all feeling that way , then yeah, it must not be true . Yes. And so we. We can reach out and find those people that are going to, um, hold the rope and support us and cheer us on and, and remind us to turn around and check out the view. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. A hundred percent. I would love, I always ask everybody I interview, what is bringing you joy lately?
Well, , honestly, right in this moment. Um, besides this conversation, I have been getting so much joy from my Cha Tea. I buy . I buy this really special cha tea mix from a local vendor in Chattanooga, and it's just the best cha I've ever had. And I'm not really even normally a cha person, but I could drink this stuff all day.
And it's so perfect for fall. It just has that like warm toastiness to it and it's kind of sweet at the same time. It's just delicious. So that's honestly bringing me a ton of joy. And the fact that it's the fall right now in Tennessee, the colors are just absolutely stunning. Um, and I, you know, it's my favorite time of year, so I love this.
So where can we connect with you? Where can the listeners, uh, support you and tell us where we can find you? Yeah, the best place is my website. It's ariel curry.com. Um, you can also connect with me on Instagram. My handle is at Ariel k Curry, or you could find me on Facebook, Whatever is the best way to connect for you.
I'm probably on that social media channel. Um, so yeah, I'd love to connect with anyone. A big part of what I do, like I mentioned, is book proposals. So if you are, um, interested in writing a book proposal, Or have written a book proposal. Um, I edit book proposals. I coach people through that process. Um, I go strike book proposals if you don't wanna do it yourself, uh, that's totally fine.
Um, I love doing all of that stuff. The other big thing that I do is I run a group coaching program with Jeff Goines. So his company, um, is called Fresh Complaint. And so if you go to fresh complaint.com/finish, You can learn more about, um, our group coaching program. It's called Finish Your First Draft. So we talk about setting goals, we talk about establishing rewards for yourself.
We talk about, you know, getting good writing habits. And, um, we make progress every single week towards our goals. And we take time in those meetings to celebrate our milestones. We celebrate every single week, any wins, any, any kind of win no matter how. It is, um, we celebrate in those meetings and we hold each other accountable to meeting the goal of finishing the first draft of your book.
Our next cohort is starting in January and we are starting to, um, accept applications for that. So now is a good time to sign up. Great. And that website was fresh complaint.com/finish. Right. Yes. Yes. Okay. Awesome. We'll check it out. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ariel. It was great to chat. Yeah, thank you, Meredith.
As we wrap up this little unit on celebration here on the podcast, these ideas that Ariel left us with are a perfect way to close. So let me ask you, what is something hard that you have done? What is something that you've made it through that you've completed or accomplished in your. What would it be like to let that speak into this moment?
To strengthen your self-efficacy? Let it help you believe that things are possible. It doesn't take the work out of the climb. It just takes your mind off the obstacle list. You aren't one of the people you have to convince that you can do this for those in the midst of a big project. What rewards will you set ahead of time for?
As you plan whatever you're doing in your life, when will you turn around and admire the view? And lastly, what can you do to make your creative practice fun? What group can you join? Who can you partner with to create or even just celebrate your progress? I'm struck by Ariel's courage and bravery to return to the piano.
This is her playing, by the way, her favorite composer show pen. So I'm left with that question. What would I. If I wasn't afraid of failing, what doors would unlock for me if I started working on my self-efficacy, like I work on my own OBO technique. Thank you so much to Ariel for joining me today and for being that synchronicity that I needed.
I will share Ariel's website and social media handles in the show notes as well as that book coaching group. She mentioned that she leads with Jeff Go. As always, if you have any thoughts or comments for me about the episode or a question to be answered in future shows, please click the link in the show notes and be in touch.
I absolutely love. From listeners next week, I will be back with another full length episode, so make sure you subscribe and follow at Artists for Joy so you don't miss an episode. Until then, take good care.